Friday June 29, 1787


Dr. JOHNSON. The controversy must be endless whilst Gentlemen differ in the grounds of their arguments; Those on one
side considering the States as districts of people composing one political Society; those on the other considering them as so
many political societies. The fact is that the States do exist as political Societies, and a Govt. is to be formed for them in their
political capacity, as well as for the individuals composing them. Does it not seem to follow, that if the States as such are to
exist they must be armed with some power of self-defense. This is the idea of [Col. Mason] who appears to have looked to
the bottom of this matter. Besides the Aristocratic and other interests, which ought to have the means of defending
themselves, the States have their interests as such, and are equally entitled to likes means. On the whole he thought that as in
some respects the States are to be considered in their political capacity, and in others as districts of individual citizens, the
two ideas embraced on different sides, instead of being opposed to each other, ought to be combined; that in one branch the
people, ought to be represented; in the other the States.

Mr. GHORUM. The States as now confederated have no doubt a right to refuse to be consolidated, or to be formed into any
new system. But he wished the small States which seemed most ready to object, to consider which are to give up most, they
or the larger ones. He conceived that a rupture of the Union would be an event unhappy for all, but surely the large States
would be least unable to take care of themselves, and to make connections with one another. The weak therefore were most
interested in establishing some general system for maintaining order.

If among individuals, composed partly of weak, and partly of strong, the former most need the protection of law and
Government, the case is exactly the same with weak and powerful States. What would be the situation of Delaware (for these
things he found must be spoken out, and it might as well be done first as last) what would be the situation of Delaware in
case of a separation of the States? Would she not lie at the mercy of Pennsylvania? Would not her true interest lie in being
consolidated with her, and ought she not now to wish for such a union with Pennsylvania under one Government as will put
it out of the power of Pennsylvania to oppress her?

Nothing can be more ideal than the danger apprehended by the States, from their being formed into one nation. Massachusetts
was originally three colonies, viz old Massachusetts Plymouth and the province of Maine. These apprehensions existed then.
An incorporation took place; all parties were safe and satisfied; and every distinction is now forgotten. The case was similar
with Connecticut and Newhaven. The dread of union was reciprocal; the consequence of it equally salutary and satisfactory.
In like manner New Jersey has been made one society out of two parts. Should a separation of the States take place, the fate
of New Jersey would be worst of all. She has no foreign commerce and can have but little.

Pennsylvania and New York will continue to levy taxes on her consumption. If she consults her interest she would beg of all
things to be annihilated. The apprehensions of the small States ought to be appeased by another reflection. Massachusetts will
be divided. The province of Maine is already considered as approaching the term of its annexation to it; and Pennsylvania will
probably not increase, considering the present state of her population, and other events that may happen. On the whole he
considered a Union of the States as necessary to their happiness, and a firm General Government as necessary to their Union.
He should consider it as his duty if his colleagues viewed the matter in the same light he did, to stay here as long as any other
State would remain with them, in order to agree on some plan that could with propriety be recommended to the people.

Mr. ELSWORTH, did not despair. He still trusted that some good plan of Government would be devised and adopted.

Mr. READ. He should have no objection to the system if it were truly national, but it has too much of a federal mixture in it.
The little States he thought had not much to fear. He suspected that the large States felt their want of energy, and wished for
a General Government to supply the defect. Massachusetts was evidently laboring under her weakness and he believed
Delaware would not be in much danger if in her neighborhood. Delaware had enjoyed tranquility and he flattered himself
would continue to do so.

He was not however so selfish as not to wish for a good General Government. In order to obtain one the whole States must
be incorporated. If the States remain, the representatives of the large ones will stick together, and carry every thing before
them. The Executive also will be chosen under the influence of this partiality, and will betray it in his administration. These
jealousies are inseparable from the scheme of leaving the States in existence. They must be done away. The un-granted lands
also which have been assumed by particular States must also be given up. He repeated his approbation of the plan of Mr.
Hamilton, wished it to be substituted in place of that on the table.

Mr. MADISON agreed with Dr. Johnson, that the mixed nature of the Government ought to be kept in view; but thought too
much stress was laid on the rank of the States as political societies. There was a gradation, he observed from the smallest
corporation, with the most limited powers, to the largest empire with the most perfect sovereignty. He pointed out the
limitations on the sovereignty of the States. As now confederated their laws in relation to the paramount law of the
Confederacy were analogous to that of bye laws to the supreme law within a State. Under the proposed Government the
powers of the States will be much farther reduced. According to the views of every member, the General Government will
have powers far beyond those exercised by the British Parliament, when the States were part of the British Empire. It will in
particular have the power, without the consent of the State Legislatures, to levy money directly on the people themselves; and
therefore not to divest such unequal portions of the people as composed the several States, of an equal voice, would subject
the system to the reproaches and evils which have resulted from the vicious representation in Great Britain.

He entreated the gentlemen representing the small States to renounce a principle which was confessedly unjust, which could
never be admitted, and if admitted must infuse mortality into a Constitution which we wished to last forever. He prayed them
to ponder well the consequences of suffering the Confederacy to go to pieces. It had been said that the want of energy in the
large states would be a security to the small. It was forgotten that this want of energy proceeded from the supposed security
of the States against all external danger. Let each state depend on itself for its security, and let apprehensions arise of danger,
from distant powers or from neighboring States, and the languishing condition of all the States, large as well as small, would
soon be transformed into vigorous and high toned Governments.

His great fear was that their Governments would then have too much energy, that these might not only be formidable in the
large to the small States, but fatal to the internal liberty of all. The same causes which have rendered the old world the
Theatre of incessant wars, and have banished liberty from the face of it, would soon produce the same effects here. The
weakness and jealousy of the small States would quickly introduce some regular military force against sudden danger from
their powerful neighbors. The example would be followed by others, and would soon become universal.

In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate. Constant apprehension of
war, has the same tendency to render the head too large for the body. A standing military force, with an overgrown
Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against foreign danger, have been always the
instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was
apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

It is perhaps questionable, whether the best concerted system of absolute power in Europe could maintain itself, in a situation,
where no alarms of external danger could tame the people to the domestic yoke. The insular situation of Great Britain was the
principal cause of her being an exception to the general fate of Europe. It has rendered less defense necessary, and admitted a
kind of defense which could not be used for the purpose of oppression. These consequences he conceived ought to be
apprehended whether the States should run into a total separation from each other, or should enter into partial confederacies.
Either event would be truly deplorable; and those who might be accessory to either, could never be forgiven by their Country,
nor by themselves.

Mr. HAMILTON observed that individuals forming political Societies modify their rights differently, with regard to suffrage.
Examples of it are found in all the States. In all of them some individuals are deprived of the right altogether, not having the
requisite qualification of property. In some of the States the right of suffrage is allowed in some cases and refused in others.
To vote for a member in one branch, a certain quantum of property, to vote for a member in another branch of the
Legislature, a higher quantum of property is required. In like manner States may modify their right of suffrage differently, the
larger exercising a larger, the smaller a smaller share of it. But as States are a collection of individual men, which ought we to
respect most? the rights of the people composing them, or of the artificial beings resulting from the composition. Nothing
could be more preposterous or absurd than to sacrifice the former to the latter.

It has been said that if the smaller States renounce their equality, they renounce at the same time their liberty. The truth is, it
is a contest for power, not for liberty. Will the men composing the small States be less free than those composing the larger.
The State of Delaware having 40,000 souls will lose power, if she has 1/10 only of the votes allowed to Pennsylvania having
400,000. But will the people of Delaware be less free, if each citizen has an equal vote with each citizen of Pennsylvania?

He admitted that common residence within the same State would produce a certain degree of attachment; and that this
principle might have a certain influence in public affairs. He thought however, that this might by some precautions be in a
great measure excluded, and that no material inconvenience could result from it, as there could not be any ground for
combination among the States whose influence was most dreaded. The only considerable distinction of interests, lay between
the carrying and non-carrying States, which divide instead of uniting the largest States. No considerable inconvenience had
been found from the division of the State of New York into different districts of different sizes.

Some of the consequences of a dissolution of the Union, and the establishment of partial confederacies, had been pointed out.
He would add another of a most serious nature. Alliances will immediately be formed with different rival and hostile nations of
Europe, who will foment disturbances among ourselves, and make us parties to all their own quarrels. Foreign Nations having
American dominions are and must be jealous of us. Their representatives betray the utmost anxiety for our fate, and for the
result of this meeting, which must have an essential influence on it.

It had been said that respectability in the eyes of foreign Nations was not the object at which we aimed; that the proper object
of republican Government was domestic tranquility and happiness. This was an ideal distinction. No Government could give
us tranquility and happiness at home, which did not possess sufficient stability and strength to make us respectable abroad.
This was the critical moment for forming such a Government. We should run every risk in trusting to future amendments. As
yet we retain the habits of union. We are weak and sensible of our weakness. Henceforward the motives will become feebler,
and the difficulties greater. It is a miracle that we were now here exercising our tranquil and free deliberations on the subject.
It would be madness to trust to future miracles. A thousand causes must obstruct a reproduction of them.

Mr. PIERCE considered the equality of votes under the Confederation as the great source of the public difficulties. The
members of Congress were advocates for local advantages. State distinctions must be sacrificed as far as the general good
required, but without destroying the States. Though from a small State, he felt himself a Citizen of the United States.

Mr. GERRY urged that we never were independent States, were not such now, and never could be even on the principles of
the Confederation. The States and the advocates for them were intoxicated with the idea of their sovereignty. He was a
member of Congress at the time the federal articles were formed. The injustice of allowing each State an equal vote was long
insisted on. He voted for it, but it was against his Judgment, and under the pressure of public danger, and the obstinacy of the
lesser States. The present confederation he considered as dissolving. The fate of the Union will be decided by the Convention.
If they do not agree on something, few delegates will probably be appointed to Congress. If they do Congress will probably
be kept up till the new System should be adopted. He lamented that instead of coming here like a band of brothers, belonging
to the same family, we seemed to have brought with us the spirit of political negotiators.

Mr. L. MARTIN remarked that the language of the States being sovereign and independent, was once familiar and
understood; though it seemed now so strange and obscure. He read those passages in the articles of Confederation, which
describe them in that language.

On the question as moved by Mr. Lansing. Shall the word "not" be struck out.
Massachusetts, no. Connecticut, aye. New York, aye. New Jersey, aye. Pennsylvania, no. Delaware, aye. Maryland, divided.
Virginia, no. North Carolina, no. South Carolina, no. Georgia, no.

On the motion to agree to the clause as reported, "that the rule of suffrage in the 1st. branch ought not to be according to that
established by the articles of  Confederation.
Massachusetts, aye. Connecticut, no. New York, no. New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, aye. Delaware, no. Maryland, divided.
Virginia, aye. North Carolina, ay. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, aye.

Dr. JOHNSON and Mr. ELSEWORTH moved to postpone the residue of the clause, and take up Resolution 8.  On question.
Massachusetts, no. Connecticut, aye. New York, aye. New Jersey, aye. Pennsylvania, aye. Delaware, no. Maryland, aye.
Virginia, aye. North Carolina, aye. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, aye.

Mr. ELSEWORTH moved that the rule of suffrage in the 2d. branch be the same with that established by the articles of
confederation." He was not sorry on the whole he said, that the vote just passed, had determined against this rule in the first
branch. He hoped it would become a ground of compromise with regard to the 2d. branch. We were partly national; partly
federal. The proportional representation in the first branch was conformable to the national principle and would secure the
large States against the small.

An equality of voices was conformable to the federal principle and was necessary to secure the Small States against the large.
He trusted that on this middle ground a compromise would take place. He did not see that it could on any other. And if no
compromise should take place, our meeting would not only be in vain but worse than in vain. To the Eastward he was sure
Massachusetts was the only State that would listen to a proposition for excluding the States as equal political Societies, from
an equal voice in both branches. The others would risk every consequence rather than part with so dear a right. An attempt to
deprive them of it, was at once cutting the body of America in two, and as he supposed would be the case, somewhere about
this part of it.

The large States he conceived would, notwithstanding the equality of votes, have an influence that would maintain their
superiority. Holland, as had been admitted [by Mr. Madison] had, notwithstanding a like equality in the Dutch Confederacy, a
prevailing influence in the public measures. The power of self-defense was essential to the small States. Nature had given it to
the smallest insect of the creation. He could never admit that there was no danger of combinations among the large States.
They will like individuals find out and avail themselves of the advantage to be gained by it.

It was true the danger would be greater, if they were contiguous and had a more immediate common interest. A defensive
combination of the small States was rendered more difficult by their greater number. He would mention another consideration
of great weight. The existing confederation was founded on the equality of the States in the article of suffrage; was it meant
to pay no regard to this antecedent plighted faith? Let a strong Executive, a Judiciary and Legislative power be created; but
Let not too much be attempted, by which all may be lost. He was not in general a half-way man, yet he preferred doing half
the good we could, rather than do nothing at all. The other half may be added, when the necessity shall be more fully

Mr. BALDWIN could have wished that the powers of the General Legislature had been defined, before the mode of
constituting it had been agitated. He should vote against the motion of Mr. Elseworth, though he did not like the Resolution as
it stood in the Report of the Committee of the whole. He thought the second branch ought to be the representation of
property, and that in forming it therefore some reference ought to be had to the relative wealth of their Constituents, and to
the principles on which the Senate of Massachusetts was constituted. He concurred with those who thought it would be
impossible for the General Legislature to extend its cares to the local matters of the States.

Notes on the Debates in the Federal Convention
By James Madison
June 29, 1787
The Illinois Conservative