Notes on the Debates in the Federal Convention
By James Madison
July 12, 1787
Thursday July 12, 1787


Mr. Govr. MORRIS moved to add to the clause empowering the Legislature to vary the Representation according to the
principles of wealth and number of inhabitants a "proviso that taxation shall be in proportion to Representation."

Mr. BUTLER contended again that Representation should be according to the full number of inhabitants including all the
blacks; admitting the justice of Mr. Govr. Morris's motion.

Mr. MASON also admitted the justice of the principle, but was afraid embarrassments might be occasioned to the Legislature
by it. It might drive the Legislature to the plan of Requisitions.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS, admitted that some objections lay against his motion, but supposed they would be removed by
restraining the rule to direct taxation. With regard to indirect taxes on exports and imports and on consumption, the rule would
be inapplicable. Notwithstanding what had been said to the contrary he was persuaded that the imports and consumption were
pretty nearly equal throughout the Union.

General PINKNEY liked the idea. He thought it so just that it could not be objected to. But foresaw that if the revision of the
census was left to the discretion of the Legislature, it would never be carried into execution. The rule must be fixed, and the
execution of it enforced by the Constitution. He was alarmed at what was said yesterday, concerning the negroes. He was
now again alarmed at what had been thrown out concerning the taxing of exports. South Carolina has in one year exported to
the amount of 600,000 Sterling all which was the fruit of the labor of her blacks. Will she be represented in proportion to this
amount? She will not. Neither ought she then to be subject to a tax on it. He hoped a clause would be inserted in the system,
restraining the Legislature from taxing Exports.

Mr. WILSON approved the principle, but could not see how it could be carried into execution; unless restrained to direct

Mr. Govr. MORRIS having so varied his Motion by inserting the word "direct." It passed nem con as follows-"provided the
always that direct taxation ought to be proportioned to representation."

Mr. DAVIE, said it was high time now to speak out. He saw that it was meant by some gentlemen to deprive the Southern
States of any share of Representation for their blacks. He was sure that North Carolina would never confederate on any terms
that did not rate them at least as 3/5 . If the Eastern States meant therefore to exclude them altogether the business was at an

Dr. JOHNSON, thought that wealth and population were the true, equitable rule of representation; but he conceived that these
two principles resolved themselves into one; population being the best measure of wealth. He concluded therefore that the
number of people ought to be established as the rule, and that all descriptions including blacks equally with the whites, ought
to fall within the computation. As various opinions had been expressed on the subject, he would move that a Committee might
be appointed to take them into consideration and report thereon.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS. It has been said that it is high time to speak out, as one member, he would candidly do so. He came
here to form a compact for the good of America. He was ready to do so with all the States. He hoped and believed that all
would enter into such a Compact. If they would not he was ready to join with any States that would. But as the Compact was
to be voluntary, it is in vain for the Eastern States to insist on what the Southern States will never agree to. It is equally vain
for the latter to require what the other States can never admit; and he verily believed the people of Pennsylvania will never
agree to a representation of Negroes. What can be desired by these States more than has been already proposed; that the
Legislature shall from time to time regulate Representation according to population and wealth.

Gen. PINKNEY desired that the rule of wealth should be ascertained and not left to the pleasure of the Legislature; and that
property in slaves should not be exposed to danger under a Government instituted for the protection of property.

The first clause in the Report of the first Grand Committee was postponed.

Mr. ELSEWORTH. In order to carry into effect the principle established, moved to add to the last clause adopted by the
House the words following "and that the rule of contribution by direct taxation for the support of the Government of the
United States shall be the number of white inhabitants, and three fifths of every other description in the several States, until
some other rule that shall more accurately ascertain the wealth of the several States can be devised and adopted by the

Mr. BUTLER seconded the motion in order that it might be committed.

Mr. RANDOLPH was not satisfied with the motion. The danger will be revived that the ingenuity of the Legislature may
evade or pervert the rule so as to perpetuate the power where it shall be lodged in the first instance. He proposed in lieu of Mr.
Elseworth's motion, "that in order to ascertain the alterations in Representation that may be required from time to time by
changes in the relative circumstances of the States, a census shall be taken within two years from the first meeting of the
General Legislature of the U.S., and once within the term of every year afterwards, of all the inhabitants in the manner and
according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their resolution of the 18th day of April 1783; [rating the blacks at 3/5 of
their number] and, that the Legislature of the U.S. shall arrange the Representation accordingly."

He urged strenuously that express security ought to be provided for including slaves in the ratio of Representation. He
lamented that such a species of property existed. But as it did exist the holders of it would require this security. It was
perceived that the design was entertained by some of excluding slaves altogether; the Legislature therefore ought not to be left
at liberty.

Mr. ELSEWORTH withdraws his motion and seconds that of Mr. Randolph.

Mr. WILSON observed that less umbrage would perhaps be taken against an admission of the slaves into the Rule of
representation, if it should be so expressed as to make them indirectly only an ingredient in the rule, by saying that they should
enter into the rule of taxation; and as representation was to be according to taxation, the end would be equally attained. He
accordingly moved and was seconded so to alter the last clause adopted by the House, that together with the amendment
proposed the whole should read as follows, “provided always that the representation ought to be proportioned according to
direct taxation, and in order to ascertain the alterations in the direct taxation which may be required from time to time by the
changes in the relative circumstances of the States; Resolved that a census be taken within two years from the first meeting of
the Legislature of the United States, and once within the term of every years afterwards of all the inhabitants of the U.S. in the
manner and according to the ratio recommended by Congress in their Resolution of April 18, 1783; and that the Legislature of
the U. S. shall proportion the direct taxation accordingly."

Mr. KING. Although this amendment varies the aspect somewhat, he had still two powerful objections against tying down the
Legislature to the rule of numbers. 1.They were at this time an uncertain index of the relative wealth of the States. 2. If they
were a just index at this time it can not be supposed always to continue so. He was far from wishing to retain any unjust
advantage whatever in one part of the Republic. If justice was not the basis of the connection it could not be of long duration.
He must be shortsighted indeed who does not foresee that whenever the Southern States shall be more numerous than the
Northern, they can and will hold a language that will awe them into justice.

If they threaten to separate now in case injury shall be done them, will their threats be less urgent or effectual, when force
shall back their demands. Even in the intervening period, there will no point of time at which they will not be able to say, do us
justice or we will separate. He urged the necessity of placing confidence to a certain degree in every Government and did not
conceive that the proposed confidence as to a periodical readjustment, of the representation exceeded that degree.

Mr. PINKNEY moved to amend Mr. Randolph's motion so as to make "blacks equal to the whites in the ratio of
representation." This he urged was nothing more than justice. The blacks are the laborers, the peasants of the Southern States;
they are as productive of pecuniary resources as those of the Northern States. They add equally to the wealth, and considering
money as the sinew of war, to the strength of the nation. It will also be politic with regard to the Northern States, as taxation
is to keep pace with Representation.

Gen. PINKNEY moves to insert 6 years instead of two, as the period computing from 1st. meeting of the Legislature, within
which the first census should be taken. On this question for inserting six instead of "two" in the proposition of Mr. Wilson, it
passed in the affirmative.

Massachusetts, no. Connecticut, aye. New Jersey, aye. Pennsylvania, aye. Delaware, Divided. Maryland, aye. Virginia, no.
North Carolina, no. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, no.

On a question for filling the blank for the periodical census with 20 years, it passed in the negative.

Massachusetts, no. Connecticut, aye. New Jersey, aye. Pennsylvania, aye. Delaware, no. Maryland, no. Virginia, no. North
Carolina, no. South Carolina, no. Georgia, no.

On a question for 10 years, it passed in the affirmative.

Massachusetts, aye. Connecticut, no. New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, aye. Delaware, aye. Maryland, aye. Virginia, aye. North
Carolina, aye. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, aye.

On Mr. Pinkney's motion for rating blacks as equal to Whites instead of as 3/5-

Massachusetts, .no. Connecticut, no. [Dr Johnson aye] New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, no. [3 against 2.] Delaware, no.
Maryland, no. Virginia, no. North Carolina, no. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, aye.

Mr. RANDOLPH’S proposition as varied by Mr. Wilson being read for question on the whole.

Mr. GERRY, urged that the principle of it could not be carried into execution as the States were not to be taxed as States.
With regard to taxes in imports, he conceived they would be more productive. Where there were no slaves than where there
were; the consumption being greater.

Mr. ELSEWORTH. In case of a poll tax there would be no difficulty. But there would probably be none. The sum allotted to
a State may be levied without difficulty according to the plan used by the State in raising its own supplies. On the question on
the whole proposition; as proportioning representation to direct taxation and both to the white and 3/5 of black inhabitants, and
requiring a Census within six years, and within every ten years afterwards.

Massachusetts, divided. Connecticut, aye. New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, aye. Delaware, no. Maryland, aye. Virginia, aye.
North Carolina, aye. South Carolina, divided. Georgia, aye.
The Illinois Conservative