Tuesday July 10, 1787

IN CONVENTION

Mr. KING reported from the Committee yesterday appointed that the States at the first meeting of the General Legislature,
should be represented by 65 members in the following proportions, to wit:

New Hampshire by 3. Massachusetts, 8. Rhode Island, 1. Connecticut, 5. New York, 6. New Jersey, 4. Pennsylvania, 8.
Delaware, 1. Maryland, 6. Virginia, 10. North Carolina, 5. South Carolina, 5. Georgia, 3.

Mr. RUTLIDGE moved that New Hampshire be reduced from 3 to 2 members. Her numbers did not entitle her to 3 and it
was a poor State.

Gen. PINKNEY seconds the motion.

Mr. KING. New Hampshire has probably more than 120,000 Inhabitants and has an extensive Country of tolerable fertility. Its
inhabitants therefore may be expected to increase fast. He remarked that the four Eastern States having 800,000 souls, have
1/3 fewer representatives than the four Southern States, having not more than 700,000 souls rating the blacks, as 5 for 3. The
Eastern people will advert to these circumstances, and be dissatisfied. He believed them to be very desirous of uniting with
their Southern brethren, but did not think it prudent to rely so far on that disposition as to subject them to any gross inequality.

He was fully convinced that the question concerning a difference of interests did not lie where it had hitherto been discussed,
between the great and small States; but between the Southern and Eastern. For this reason he had been ready to yield
something in the proportion of representatives for the security of the Southern. No principle would justify the giving them a
majority. They were brought as near an equality as was possible. He was not averse to giving them a still greater security, but
did not see how it could be done.

Gen. PINKNEY. The Report before it was committed was more favorable to the Southern States than as it now stands. If
they are to form so considerable a minority, and the regulation of trade is to be given to the General Government, they will be
nothing more than overseers for the Northern States. He did not expect the Southern States to be raised to a majority of
representatives, but wished them to have something like an equality. At present by the alterations of the Committee in favor of
the Northern States, they are removed farther from it than they were before. One member had indeed been added to Virginia
which he was glad of as he considered her as a Southern State. He was glad also that the members of Georgia were increased.

Mr. WILLIAMSON was not for reducing New Hampshire from three to two, but for reducing some others. The Southern
interest must be extremely endangered by the present arrangement. The Northern States are to have a majority in the first
instance and the means of perpetuating it.

Mr. DAYTON observed that the line between the Northern and Southern interest had been improperly drawn; that
Pennsylvania was the dividing State, there being six on each side of her Gen. PINKNEY urged the reduction; dwelt on the
superior wealth of the Southern States, and insisted on its having its due weight in the Government.

Mr. Govr. MORRIS regretted the turn of the debate. The States he found had many Representatives on the floor. Few he
fears were to be deemed the Representatives of America. He thought the Southern States have by the report more than their
share of representation. Property ought to have its weight, but not all the weight. If the Southern States are to supply money.
The Northern States are to spill their blood. Besides, the probable Revenue to be expected from the Southern States has been
greatly overrated. He was against reducing New Hampshire.

Mr. RANDOLPH was opposed to a reduction of New Hampshire, not because she had a full title to three members, but
because it was in his contemplation 1. To make it the duty instead of leaving it in the discretion of the Legislature to regulate
the representation by a periodical census. 2. To require more than a bare majority of votes in the Legislature in certain cases,
and particularly in commercial cases.

On the question for reducing New Hampshire from 3 to 2 Represents. it passed in the negative
Massachusetts. no. Connecticut, no. New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, no. Delaware, no. Maryland, no. Virginia, no. North
Carolina, aye. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, no.

Gen. PINKNEY and Mr. Alexander MARTIN moved that six Representatives instead of five be allowed to North Carolina.

On the Question, it passed in the negative.

Massachusetts, no. Connecticut, no. New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, no. Delaware, no. Maryland, no. Virginia, no. North
Carolina, aye. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, aye.

Gen. PINKNEY and Mr. BUTLER made the same motion in favor of South Carolina.

On the Question it passed in the negative
Massachusetts, no. Connecticut, no. New York, no. New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, no. Delaware, aye. Maryland, no. Virginia,
no. New Carolina, aye. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, aye.

Gen. PINKNEY and Mr. HOUSTON moved that Georgia be allowed four instead of three Representatives urging the
unexampled celerity of its population. On the Question, it passed in the Negative.

Massachusetts, no. Connecticut, no. New York, no. New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, no. Delaware, no. Maryland, no. Virginia,
aye. North Carolina, aye. South Carolina, aye. Georgia, aye.

Mr. MADISON, moved that the number allowed to each State be doubled. A majority of a Quorum of 65 members, was too
small a number to represent the whole inhabitants of the United States. They would not possess enough of the confidence of
the people, and would be too sparsely taken from the people, to bring with them all the local information which would be
frequently wanted. Double the number will not be too great, even with the future additions from New States. The additional
expense was too inconsiderable to be regarded in so important a case. And as far as the augmentation might be unpopular on
that score, the objection was overbalanced by its effect on the hopes of a greater number of the popular Candidates.

Mr. ELSEWORTH urged the objection of expense, and that the greater the number, the more slowly would the business
proceed; and the less probably be decided as it ought, at last. He thought the number of Representatives too great in most of
the State Legislatures: and that a large number was less necessary in the General Legislature than in those of the States, as its
business would relate to a few great, national Objects only.

Mr. SHERMAN would have preferred 50 to 65. The great distance they will have to travel will render their attendance
precarious and will make it difficult to prevail on a sufficient number of fit men to undertake the service. He observed that the
expected increase from New States also deserved consideration.

Mr. GERRY was for increasing the number beyond 65. The larger the number, the less the danger of their being corrupted.
The people are accustomed to and fond of a numerous representation, and will consider their rights as better secured by it.
The danger of excess in the number may be guarded against by fixing a point within which the number shall always be kept.

Col. MASON admitted that the objection drawn from the consideration of expense, had weight both in itself, and as the people
might be affected by it. But he thought it outweighed by the objections against the smallness of the number. 38, will he
supposes, as being a majority of 65, form a quorum. 20 will be a majority of 38. This was certainly too small a number to
make laws for America. They would neither bring with them all the necessary information relative to various local interests,
nor possess the necessary confidence of the people. After doubling the number, the laws might still be made by so few as
almost to be objectionable on that account.

Mr. READ was in favor of the Motion. Two of the States [Delaware and Rhode Island] would have but a single member if
the aggregate number should remain at 65 and in case of accident to either of these one State would have no representative
present to give explanations or information of its interests or wishes. The people would not place their confidence in so small a
number. He hoped the objects of the General Government would be much more numerous than seemed to be expected by
some gentlemen, and that they would become more and more so. As to New States the highest number of Representatives for
the whole might be limited, and all danger of excess thereby prevented.

Mr. RUTLIDGE opposed the motion. The Representatives were too numerous in all the States. The full number allotted to the
States may be expected to attend and the lowest possible quorum should not therefore be considered. The interests of their
Constituents will urge their attendance too strongly for it to be omitted, and he supposed the General Legislature would not sit
more than 6 or 8 weeks in the year.

On the Question for doubling the number, it passed in the negative.

Massachusetts, no. Connecticut, no. New York, no. New Jersey, no. Pennsylvania, no. Delaware, aye. Maryland, no. Virginia,
aye. North Carolina, no. South Carolina, no. Georgia, no.

On the question for agreeing to the apportionment of Representatives as amended by the last committee, it passed in the
affirmative.

Massachusetts, aye. Connecticut, aye. New York, aye. New Jersey, aye. Pennsylvania, aye. Delaware, aye. Maryland, aye.
Virginia, aye. North Carolina, aye. South Carolina, no. Georgia, no.

Mr. BROOM gave notice to the House that he had concurred with a reserve to himself of an intention to claim for his State an
equal voice in the 2nd branch, which he thought could not be denied after this concession of the small States as to the first
branch.

Mr. RANDOLPH moved as an amendment to the report of the Committee of five "that in order to ascertain the alterations in
the population and wealth of the several States the Legislature should be required to cause a census, and estimate to be taken
within one year after its first meeting; and every ____ years thereafter, and that the Legislature arrange the Representation
accordingly."

Mr. Govr. MORRIS opposed it as fettering the Legislature too much. Advantage may be taken of it in time of war or the
apprehension of it, by new States to extort particular favors. If the mode was to be fixed for taking a census, it might certainly
be extremely inconvenient: if unfixed the Legislature may use such a mode as will defeat the object, and perpetuate the
inequality. He was always against such Shackles on the Legislature.

They had been found very pernicious in most of the State Constitutions. He dwelt much on the danger of throwing such a
preponderancy into the Western Scale, suggesting that in time the Western people would outnumber the Atlantic States. He
wished therefore to put it in the power of the latter to keep a majority of votes in their own hands. It was objected he said that
if the Legislature are left at liberty, they will never readjust the Representation. He admitted that this was possible; but he did
not think it probable unless the reasons against a revision of it were very urgent and in this case, it ought not to be done.

It was moved to postpone the proposition of Mr. Randolph in order to take up the following, viz. "that the Committee of
Eleven, to whom was referred the report of the Committee of five on the subject of Representation, be requested to furnish
the Convention with the principles on which they grounded the Report," which was disagreed to: South Carolina only voting in
the affirmative.
Notes on the Debates in the Federal Convention
By James Madison
July 10, 1787
The Illinois Conservative